4 Feb. 1946, 1000-1150 hours A. I heard it from the Ambassador and also from Ribbentrop. Q. What was the occasion under which Ribbentrop told you about that? A. In any case I am absolutely certain that there was no such Pact. I spoke to Ribbentrop in Berlin before he went to Italy when we had been discussing the matter of Italy’s joining the Anti-Comintern Pact and at that time, as later, when the Ambassador returned from Italy, it was definite that she had not been a signatory to any secret pact. Q. Did you discuss it with Ribbentrop after he returned from Italy? A. Frankly, I do not recall the exact times when I spoke to Ribbentrop about this, but I reiterate that I am absolutely certain that there was no such pact. Q. Was there any other type of secret pact and by that I mean a pact between Italy and Japan that might be different in some respects from the secret pact between Germany and Japan? A. To the best of my knowledge there was no such pact. This, of course, is not within the ken of my responsibility, but to the best of my knowledge there was none. 1 Q. Tell us this, if you can, General, why did Japan not enter into a similar secret pact with Italy when Italy became a third party signatory to the Anti-Comintern Pact? A. There would be no occasion in which Italy would be involved in this matter. That is to say, of aiding Russia in any way at all. Q. Do you know the circumstances incident to Italy becoming a party to the Anti-Comintern Pact. By that I want to know who suggested it and to whom? A. I am not sure of what the circumstances were, but I believe that there were talks between Italy and Germany which brought it about. By this time it had come out of my hands and I can only say that I recollect that there was talk from the German side of recruiting Italy in the pact. Q. Did you participate in those negotiations with respect to Italy in any manner? A. No connection at all. Q. You have told us about the secret pact and I think you have described it pretty well to us - that was signed between Japan and Germany at the time the Anti-Comintern Pact was entered into. Now, I am wondering if there were any other secret understandings you have not told us about that were entered into between Japan and Germany at or about the same time. A. Not as treaties, but on this point I would like to tell you some things and if you have any specific questions, please interject them. (In 1936, as I stated, the secret pact and the Anti-Comintern Pact were consummated. Following this, while there were no secret pacts in 1937, the German Army and the Japanese Army agreed to furnish each other with intelligence about the Russian Military. In this regard it was decided to intensify the use of White Russians who had already been used quite a bit and had been contacted in such spots as Warsaw and Paris. There was no written agreement about this - I believe it was in September or October 1938 - that these discussions came about. With the signing of the Russo-German Non-Aggression Pact there was a temporary cessation of all such 1 ken means: “extent of knowledge.” 29