25 Feb. 1946 A. The other day I covered MATSUOKA’s visit, so I have prepared to speak to you on our next meeting regarding Soviet relations which, if you will permit me, I shall speak about today. Q. That will be all right. A. Regarding the questions you asked me the other day I shall probably go over them again during the course of my narrative. Q. Yes, I believe I indicated to you that we would expect you to go over them a little more fully. A. In regard to Soviet relations these matters which I will speak to you about first are those that occurred before I became Ambassador for the second time, but which I heard of later from MATSUOKA. MATSUOKA told me that in 1940, around the time that the Three-Power Pact was consummated that Germany and Japan spoke about a rapprochement with Russia and that it was decided Germany would make the first moves in such a rapprochement. Q. Tell us what the occasion of this conversation with MATSUOKA relative to this subject was. A. I spoke with MATSUOKA before leaving Japan and after I had been named Ambassador the second time. At that meeting with MATSUOKA he also told me that the Army was in favor of this move and that in addition the Navy Department and Prince Konoye also favored this. He then told me that Germany’s plan to bring about closer relations with the Soviet Union was to not stand in the way of the U.S.S.R.’s expansion in the direction of Iran or India. Later, from other sources (not MATSUOKA) I heard that Molotov had gone to Germany in November 1940, to discuss these matters. Further, as far as I know from what I heard, plans had not advanced to a stage where any concrete blueprints for Russia joining the Tripartite Alliance had been drawn up. MATSUOKA further told me that whatever the results of this discussion with Germany regarding rapprochement with the U.S.S.R. might be, a general plan for binding a Non-Aggression Pact with the U.S.S.R. was definitely being contemplated by the Japanese Government. These are in general the things that I heard before I left Japan and from now on I shall tell you of what I heard after I arrived in Berlin. I believe it was around the end of February 1941, that I saw Ribbentrop and questioned him regarding the German-Soviet relations and what the possibilities were where a German-Soviet-Japanese alliance of some sort was concerned. At this time the German Foreign Minister told me, and I knew for the first time, that Molotov had come to Berlin in November 1940, to talk over these matters. However, Ribbentrop stated that nothing concrete had been decided upon and that talks were still continuing. I saw Ribbentrop again in March 1941 sometime and I asked him once more how the Soviet discussions were progressing. He said that nothing had been decided as yet, but that he believed by the time MATSUOKA came to Berlin that something definite would have been decided. 1 I am going to skip ahead a bit in order to retain the continuity of the narrative. When MATSUOKA came to Berlin he spoke to me about meetings that he had had with Ribbentrop when I was not present. The Japanese Foreign Minister told me that he had informed Ribbentrop that he intended making a Non-Aggression Pact with the Soviet Union. As I recall it, MATSUOKA did not say that Ribbentrop had urged him to do this or had tried to dissuade him. To jump ahead a bit I recall that in the German statement regarding their reasons for going to war with Russia, he said that he had urged MATSUOKA to make this Non-Aggression Pact with Russia. 1 The Invasion of Russia commenced on June 22, 1941. 140